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5/4/2007 - CZ
I really must discontinue this time travelling experiment. It would seem that I have some mastery in travelling into the future (or present, now, from your perspective), but I fear I may never quite figure out how to go in the other direction. With a small sense of dread, I fear I've skipped over weeks, months and even years which at this point, may never be recovered.

Blessings, Oralas!
It would seem the golden age has become forgotten lost gold to any who were not here to experience it themselves. Time changes some things, even I have changed quite a bit. I am no longer into making music, but still the artist. I could never focus on a single medium for long and now have become heavily involved in making movies and television shows. If you happen to use MySpace, try looking for /chaoszen (You'll likely find one of me... though there are now three).

Chaos Zen

It is rather odd coming back here after so many years. Google is a strange way to remind someone of their past. I am looking for Thalia (queen of the munkies). Does she still come here? Does anyone from that age of golden discovery still come here? I've forgotten how much I love this site and all the people who once graced its pages. Le Sigh.


3/8/2006 - CZ
Again, it worked. I managed to keep the jump foward through time down to under 2 months this time.

Did I miss anything?

1/19/2006 - CZ

My experiments with time travel seem to be a remarkable success. However, there seems to be a bit of a pitfall... Though it is easy to travel forward in time, I have yet to discover a means of travelling in reverse. It is for that reason, I seem to be missing some significant portions of time and several months and even a year or two here and there are missing from my existance with no way to recover them.

After I submit this journal entry, I will once again make another leap into the near future and report again when I reach my destination.

Oracle | Zen | Quote

Doesn't it get annoying when I mess up and have to make yet another reply...

The link supposed to go HERE!

I should have made that a LINK...


Just checking in...

Chaos Zen
(Now hanging around http://www.livewireforums.com/w6/index.php?action=3&webtag=expressions )

What is the difference?
Am I a kid in a playground or a playground in a kid?

It's quicker loading if you drop the www from the front of my url.


I appologize for the duplicate images, it happened when I tried to reload the page. But here's a helpful hint: When it comes to this sort of image, reloading/refreshing is half of the fun!

Chaos Zen

I regards to "coincidence"...

I believe that some of the factors, or at least in many instances, when very unlikely or unusual events occur (coincidences), several other less common events are set into motion on a conscious level. For instance, it seems that the unlikely becomes more likely when one or more of the following conditions are in play:

- Distance from origin.
- motion or speed of travel.
- time or duration of trip.

- Distance from origin and destination.
- Significance of either origin, destination or both.
- Location along a trip in which coincidence occurs or is noticed.

- How often a method for undertaking a task is employed. (How often do you take a bus ride, travel by plane, visit a particular store or location?)
- The level of thought involved while performing a task (or taking a trip) ie: "Mind in motion". Is your mind preoccupied with a scientific, problematic, brainstorming equation or involved with some sort of daydreaming or problem-solving?

- Total time involved.
- Frequency of undertaking tasks.
How often do you perform a task (trip, dining experience, and so forth) in which such events are more likely to happen?
- Time at which the task or event begins/ends.
Is it an unusual hour or time of day for you to be awake or performing the task which facilitates coincidence?
- Time of year or season.
- Time of lunar, solar, celestial position or event.

Though all factors are not likely to be known nor what part they play on influencing unusual events, nor may they all be involved, often when a strange "coincidence" happens or is noticed, you may also notice which of these factors may be also taking place. That in itself is either a greater coincidence or lent evidence that they play a major part in cause and effect, where "coincidence" is concerned.

For true-to-life examples of such coincidences (and in many cases, details that demonstrate some of these factors, hop through the door to Coincidence! We would love to hear about some of your own coincidences, big or small and personaly, I'd love to hear of any details that you may recall along the lines of possible contributing factors.

Chaos Zen

Hey Chaos Zen,

I've just had my first year of teaching - interactive multimedia at Sheridan in Oakville. This has taken all my time but I hope to get some back now that I am on holiday. So hope to launch a few things in a month or two.

What would you like to see?

Dan Zen

When I was 17 years old, I had an instrument I made myself, for about $15 worth of parts.

I took an 8' section of 2x4 lumber, a cheap replacement electric guitar "pickup", some scrap piano wire and the cord cut of of an old pair of headphones (which used 1/4" phono plug). I used a eye hooks and angle-iron on both ends to anchor the wire/strings, carved out a hollow section on one end, under the strings and attacked the pickup in the hollow, and plugged it into the microphone plug of an old stereo.

It was my "Electric 2x4".


I've stumbled on what seems to be an excellent system for creating ACOUSTIC sigils to go along with a respelling of intent. I'm sorry the explanation is a little long and maybe dificult to understand for the musicially uninitiated. Like many things, it's much easier to put into practice than explain unfortunately.

Before I get into the actual process, I wanted to talk about the importance of instrumentation in "magical" music.

I'm attracted to the trance producing capablities of music and so have gotten interested in 1) the gamelan music of Indonesia. It's stated goal is to place the audience in a half-awake half-asleep state. 2)the ecstatic qawali singing of Persian music and 3) the polyrhythms of Africa and therefore Voudou.

What is interesting to me is that gamelan instruments are played in pairs which are roughly a quarter step apart and this creates binaural beats which are in the range of the alpha or theta brainwave frequencies. Also, the gamelan is tuned to a scale that is divided into 10 equal parts instead of the normal 12 of western musical practice. The number 10 has magical correspondences which I will leave up to you to extract. In a related topic, the music of Thailand, with a very similar rhythmic structure and instrumentation to that of gamelan, is in 7 equal steps to the octave which relates to Uranous and 7 headed dragons if you're into that sort of thing.

The scales used in Persian music are in 24 or 48 equal but have most of the notes tuned to normal notes like the music of India but the Setar (not sitar) has two of it's strings tuned to C and C1/4sharp producing the binaural beats again. The setar is the preferred instrument of Sufi mystics!

African music for ritual and worship is always polyrhythmic in a western conceived measure of 4/4 played simultaneously with another measure in 12/8. The 12/8 polyrhythm is characteristic of all voudou drumming. Another interesting facet is that in Africa, the Amadindas xylophone is tuned to a scale of 5 equal steps. When creating rhythms and melodies on a wheel as I'm about to show you, it makes a PENTAGRAM! for the Paganly inclined. This is just a subset of the 10 equal of gamelan music. The 5 equal tones to the octave from Africa are what gave rise to the "blue" notes in blues music when African slaves were deprived of their native instruments and had to adapt to the idiosyncracies of an instrument like the guitar.

Having music in "weird" tunings separates it from the music of mere mortals and adds to its potency in magical work. So, I have started combining these elements to produce the ritual music I'm looking for.

The music I come up with is not difficult to play but requires at least 2 people to get increased efficacy out of but preferrably 4 people should be used and ideally 8. However, 1 person playing in 12/8 is enough to throw something unusual into the music because we're so used to hearing and playing music in 4/4 or 3/4.

When creating a statement of desire, I use the method of first eliminating any repeat letters to create a "mantra" which has no recognizeable similarity to the original statement. It's important that it have at least 2-6 consonants because these will end up as rhythmic events. This is what "well-formed rhythms" have every 5 seconds which roughly equals about the span of one measure. Another interesting aside is that Masks of alaskan shamanism are always distorted to show the "magical" source of the spirits they're fashioned after, so there is a historical justification for this method of distorting the magical tool prior to that of Osman Spare.

Anyway, I will eliminate the vowels as well and like to add my own again later to create the "mantra." If eliminating letters reduces the mantra too much then it's not necessary to do it and the substitute method of only eliminating the vowels is used. If either method leaves you feeling that the word is still too recognizeable then a method of extrapolating permutations is used. So, if the statement of intent is, "I want to love myself better. This is simplified to "I love myself" and the vowels removed with the result "lvmslf." This has a duplicate letter "l" so I eliminate the second one. I like to reinterject the vowel "a" with the result "lavamasafa." For me, this is staisfactorily unrecognizeable but if you didn't think so then you could take lvmsf and rearrange them putting every other letter on a different side such as lmf/vs. This results in lamafavasa. If your mantra is longer than 6 consonants then you can use both methods and do anything else you have to do to make it come down to 6. I'll use the first one which goes lavamasafa because I was happy with it.

Now draw a circle and mark the quarters and cross quarters. This represents both the diatonic melody and also the rhythm in 4/4. For ease of reference I'll use the C major scale but any mode of this scale or Persian scales such as Rast or Indian Ragam could be used instead which have microtonally flat scale degrees, as long as it has 7 notes to the scale and the includes the octave. This will also work for the Thai tuning.

The point at the top is the notes "C." The next note going clockwise around the circle is "D." The one after that is "E" etc... all the way around until you get to the 8th position which represents the "C" an octave above.

Now, I write the alphabet around the circle starting at the top with "A" going clockwise around. Next, I look for the correspondences between the alphabet and the notes of the scale. The mantra is lavamasafa so the first LETTER I'm looking for is "L." When I find it I see that it corresponds to the NOTE "F." The next letter is "V," since I'm avoiding all the vowels, which corresponds to the note "A." I draw a line from the "F" on the circumference cutting across the circle to the note "A." The matrix created by the note/letter correspondences also produces the SIGIL! by drawing a line from note to note Cool!!! Another side comment is that advertisers for products like Marlboro cigarettes know there are gender differences in logo attractiveness. Designs with sharp points, like this method creates, are likely to appeal more to a males unconscious and not as well to females, at least the ones living in North America.

After you've ploted the whole thing you've got the order the notes should be played in and only PART of your sigil because you will have to create the rhythm for the 12/8 cycle to superimpose over this one in order to create a polyrhythm.

You'll be happy to hear that the rhythm for the 4/4 portion is already contained in the design of the sigil. The notes "C" of the scale is also the first beat in the measure if you now treat the circumference of the circle as a rhythmic matrix instead of a melodic one as we have been doing up to now. This sigil shows that its rhythm has NO events on the first and second eighth notes but DOES have events on the next four. We are finished creating the rhythm for the part which is in 4/4.

Before we go on to the 12/8 portion, we can place the notes of the melody in the linear form of the rhythm i.e standard music notation. So, not only is the rhythm the first drum part, it is also the rhythm for the melody associated with it.

In this case we have one note left over which doesn't fit onto the rhythm so I alternate playing it and not playing it to help create a little variety.

The melody should be played on gamelan instruments, Thai instruments or Setar. Or, if you're capable, sung, as the voice is the preferred instrument for communicating intent in Shamanism.

A 12 string guitar can also be adapted to play binaural beats by detuning the sets of double strings by a 1/4 step, Persian musicians outside of Turkey usually tune to 1/8 steps and this still corresponds to acceptable brainwave frequencies for magical use. Or two instrumentalists can play purposefully out of tune a bit on western instruments of any kind in a pinch.

African music also has a pattern played on bell(cowbell, agogo or otherwise) which I derive by rhythmic diminution of the part I already have. In laymans terms it means to play one part twice as fast as the drum part on an obnoxious bell, if you're into traditional African music, or on a shaker or rattle if you're crossing over into shamanism.

The Shaman often holds the rattle close to his head because the random, multiple strikes occuring inside the rattle also affects brainwaves placing himself into a magical state or if you shake it above a patient, putting them into the alpha "healing" frequency.

Next we create the melodic and rhythmic patterns in 12/8 the same way we made the ones in 4/4 except we make a new circle marking the quarters but this time we don't mark the cross quarters and instead ultimately have 12 stations on the circumference of the circle.

Plot the alphabet around the circle and draw the sigil based on the letter associations from the statement of intent.

If you wish to derive a melody from this, the most natural way is from the chromatic scale which has 12 notes or you can devise some other scheme.

Again, the station at the top of the circle is the first beat of the "measure." This word is in parenthesis because African musicians don't conceive of their music in measures or of even having a downbeat. Anyway, rhythmic events are known because of where the sigil makes tangents with the circle.

Most rhythm around the world is additive and not necessarily divided exactly in half as is western music. It's easier to play in 12/8 if you think of it as 3+3+3+3. This rhythm has a rhythmic event on the first beat in the first group of three. An event on the last beat in the second group of three. On the first beat in the third group of three. And on the first and last in the second group of three. An event on the last beat in the second group of three. On the first beat in the third group of three. And on the first and last in the second group of three. The chromatic melody can be extracted and placed in this rythmic matrix which comes out even, by which I mean there are no notes left over to find a home for. So we have a new drum part and a melody to go with it.

I like to extract a bell pattern from this drum part by playing it twice as fast on another bell preferably higher or lower than the other bell.

The same is true for drums but if you have two of the same sounding drums or bells, the important thing to do is to place them far apart on opposite sides of the "magician" or voudou "priest(ess)."

I read an article about this a while back that said something to the effect that, the confounding of expectations which this topical separation produces helps define a ritual space/time coordinate. Paradoxically, it is the imposition of order that cyclic drum rythms make that produces a sense of timelessness and spacelessness. Their wording of this was much more eloquent than mine I'm afraid.

The most important parts point is that the 4/4 rhythm is played against the 12/8 rhythm simultaneously. For nonmusicians, they may find it easy to play each part but impossible to play them together. This is often true of Afican music and is an acquired skill.

More could be said about why there should be the presence of the bell patterns but I won't go into it here.

Suffice it to say that another aspect of both African music and gamelan music as well as Cuban music are their use of INTERLOCKING rhythms. In order to create them you place rhythms in another instrument that fill up the empty spaces in the other part.

The 4/4 drum rhythm doesn't have any events on the first and second eighth notes or the second to last and last eigths. So, we assign an instrument to play them. We also do the same thing to the rhythm in 12/8. Its an aesthetic decision "IF you want to add more parts" or "how many instruments to add" and "on what parts."

In aesthetics a beautiful face is usually one which has smooth, clear skin. Interlocking rhythms provide a smooth rhythmic surface, but it may be counterproductive to magical work as a thing of beauty is more a work of art than a sigil to be destroyed, although the tibetan sand paintings are beautiful works of art and are nonetheless destroyed. I don't think I would create another part which interlocked with the bell pattern as this isn't usually done in African music, at least not by only one instrument. If you do it, only do it to one or possibly both of the drums.

I forgot to mention that the kind of repetetive music which sigilization constructs is very similar to avante guarde music and the music of John Cage who is mentioned on some of the Chaos "magic" websites I've seen.

I forgot to mention previously that instruments can be acquired or made inexpensively or free. A gamelan metallophone/xylophone can be constructed out of electrical conduit and a pipe cutter or out of discarded wood. Just experiement with the lengths until you get the right pitches providing a whole range of tuning possibilities very cheaply.

5 gallon plastic water bottles make great drums and the small ones also work well as a kind of bongo. Anything can be used really such as foot stomping or an upturned garbage can.
Salt shakers or toothpic vials make nice shakers.

Different lengths of ABS pipe with end caps make stamping tubes which can function as a drum part producing different pitches.

In Cuba a brake "drum" taken from a car is often used which can function as the bell of African music in this context.

I use big circular saw blades as gongs since they are prominent in the rhythmic structure of gamelan music playing on every fourth beat with the lowest pitched gong playing before everyone begins and as the last stroke of a piece of music.

A fretless instrument like a guitar or violin can be made from some wire, a broom handle and a coffee can for a resonator/body. Use two strands of wire and tune them a quarter step apart. Use colored tape to indicate different places where to put your fingers. Mapping out The Thai tuning, gamelan tuning and standard scale steps or whatever is your preference.

If you want to play it like a violin or cello, a bow can be made from a dowel and any piece of fabric that you can put dried tree sap on.

Mugically, masically yours,


Nonconformity and conformity are the same thing.
Interresting turn of events...

Chaos Zen

be yourself even if it goes against the grain of socity. it is good for the earth for you to be induvidualistic,who cares about socity's norms non conformity is good for you and the masses. seek peace in the strangeness of the fringe of socity for who knows what you will find.
individuality vs conformity
there is no "normal

Catastrophy is the catalyst for rebirth, destruction to fertilize, to make way for new life and new ideas.
Its all a vast universe of thought possibilities where each thought that occurs is like a lonely string in a vast universe composed mainly of void.
Thoughts have become so clear that there are so many questions.
Something that we should all think at times : "Normal is everybody else except for me, I am different, I am unique, I am special... "
I think that's the way my parents wanted me to turn out
What is "Normal"?

It is easy to become lost when venturing into unfamiliar territory...

I'm lost in thought
Not realy...

Any ideas?

Now that we have clean pages, (quite by accident), what would you care to discus first?
Is it back to normal yet?


Let's start all over again...

What happened?

Ooops, ignore the message below this one... The URL messed up... To get to my place click on one of these links.

Chaos Zen
Butterfly Wingz message forum.

Nico, as a friend of a friend, I would love to tell you (in plain English) the base of Chaos Magick... But, this here is not realy the place...

If you like, you may visit me at Butterfly Wingz and I will be happy to talk about it there... Likewise, Thalia, Oralas and any other regulars are also welcome to drop by my place...

Chaos Zen

The psych avalanch is a true possibility wherever it takes place, not just in Chaos Magick, but anywhere. When Hitler gained popularity in WWII Germany, he used no such magick, but I can think of no greater example of the power avalanch. Chaos magick however, like any other magick, is subject to the "rule of returns" (also called "wheel of fortune", "Karma", etc...) wherein any action caused finds retributory energy returned. Do get and good things happen, do bad and bad things happen... Any well practitioned Chaos Mage has suffered enough discord to remind him or her to keep a positive focus... (With the exeption of the more severe Eriscants who prefere to cause discord and are willing to suffer [if not purposely attemping to destroy themselves] in exchange for their ability to cause confussion or disharmony)...

Chaos Zen

would anybody be capable of boiling down chaos magick enuf for my ignerent self here?

-nico blue


nico blue

I think that your Chaos Majick is an interesting idea. With the winds of Chaos circling the globe, but I would like you to ponder this idea. And maybe I'm explaining Chaos Majick and not nowing it. Anyway, If the tree falls, would it not impower the 'tree feller' to want to create more chaos by chopping down more trees, upon seeing the fromer lying bleeding sap on the earth? It would by like one man shooting anouther, then, upon getting away with it decides that he should kill more people. I guess what I'm trying to describe here is psychological snowball effect. A greed for more power if you will.

Long tyme since last message nice to see you all agian.
Hmmm, with no nomenclature, I can only "guess" that the last few messages were from two persons.

Frenchie, Yes, that is the focus of a Chaos Mage such as I claim to be, or aspire to achieve. That is how it works, at least my own discipline, "The Butterfly Effect". But even in Chaos Majick, the "rule of returns" applies, just as it does by any other name metaphysicaly (The wiccan Rede, "Reap what you sowe", "Karma Pool", "wheel of fortune" or whatever other name)...

Your example makes perfect sense to me, but here is another example to ponder...

If to fell a tree, you swung in it's direction under will of Chaos Magicks, what is to say that the breaze cause by the trees falling, does not amplify greater, such destructive winds after they encircle the Earth and strike you in the back in the returns?
It would be like a wish granted for a gun with bullets of unlimited range, no matter which direction is faced, in circling the Earth, every shot will strike you in the back.

Such is the gravity of dangers in weilding Chaos Magick undisciplined. In recent months, I had willed weather on some occassions, with ritual and a breath to the west. within days, Huricanes developed to ravage the Eastern coasts of North America, nearly reaching myself. Perhaps coincidence, I claim no credit ill nor well for what occured, but it does lend subject for me to ponder and re-assess my means of Magery.

(this message remains unsigned, as I claim no credit nor recognotion for the workings discussed herein)

Ummmm.....I think you may has mistaken my (admitedly silly) example for some kind of proclemation.

I am a vegetarian and have been so for 9 years or so.

Just wanted to patch that up.......however, all I was trying to do was get a chaos majik strain into the conversation here.


Even if it WAS possible to have such a strong understanding of chaos, do you think it would be wise to attempt to achieve it? I think people are quite content believing in miricles and coincidences. They couldn't handle the idea that their actions could have such impact on one another and perhaps, even on the universe. Think of how early nuclear physisists felt after the atomic bomb killed all of those people.

So many people try to distance themselves from everyday cause and effect. Do you notice that at dinner-time cows are called "beef" and pigs "pork?" It is so no one has to think about the fact that the roast cooking in the oven is the same animal you had pet at the zoo a few days before. No one wants to think, "My meal has caused an innocent creature to die."

No one wants to think of the effects of many of their actions. They don't want to take that kind of responsiblity. And that's just dinner!!!

Freud-y Cat

I wonder if it would be theoretically (Metaphysically?) possible for an individual(s) to somehow have a solid grasp on chaos mechanics so as to actually effect the world (or beyond) to his/her/their will.If someone KNEW for certain that waving there left arm wildly on a certain street corner in a certain city somwhere....they could; because of their FULL grasp of chaos mechanics and 'vision', ensure the death of an antelope six days seven hours later.My example may be a bit stupid....plus, there are still, contained within it, a VAST number of open-factors still "open" for chaos to do as it will.

Hmmmmm......enter le mage de la Chaos, oui?

But in a theory of it being possible to create from nothing, there must also be a possibility of matter being returned to nil. Would it be possible, for something to simply cease to exsist entirely, even on a subatomic level.

Chaos Zen

I guess when I wrote that I hadn't really thought about the anti-matter theory far enough. Because now after reading your statement I realize if this theory were true then or universe would be crammed full of things formed through the transformation.
I think matter is matter, and has always been there, to create something as you say, would simply be reshaping the matter, maybe to better use or conduct those energies. It is reshaping energy that makes majick.


The Arts and Sciences, actually all human accomplishments are a focus of those primal energies. So then would the creation of something, like a physical object be the direct embodiment of or more so the change from anti-matter to matter of chaotic energies? Just a random thought going back to my 'Chaotic Spark' theory.
Tyme Bomb
Simply the natural amplification of the will, using primal energies.

Chaos Zen

I found it and read it, neat stuff, sort of like what I do in majik anyways, just didn't know exactly how it worked. Thanks!


Exactly, I often employ the Chaos Butterfly effect in my work. If I remember correctly, there was some discussion about it in past messages here at Danzen, as well.

Chaos Zen

I think that chaos is probably something realy small, where things start at, the first free electron that did in Hiroshima. I read about something called the butterfly effect that seems along the same lines. If anybody here read through Liber 565, there are a few hidden references to butterflies, that I think are tied in with the theory in some way.


Ahh, very good. I hadn't though of such asimile before. I think of Chaos as something random, but also as an energy or force. A random "will" of a greater whole of all things, and order is what we make of it with laws or expectations.

Your theory seems to make a little more sense of the details, as well as how they both seem to work together.

Chaos Zen

"I think a little Chaos is in order here..."
(Once overheard at a bar durring a New Years Eve party)

I agree if our ancestors simple said, "the stars are.." then where would we be today? It would eliminate all wonder and curiosity about our Universe. I believe that science would not exist in such a world.

I'm going to go way out here on a thought I just had. Can we solidify and identify Chaos itself?? Could Chaos be made up of simple negetive and positive ions? Think of it as the "spark" that ignited the flame (a form of chaos). We could look at the volcanoe as being the final part of some tiny electrical chain reaction that liquified rock, built up pressure, and forced it's way out of the center of the Earth. A chaotic person may only be responding to chemical and electro-chemical reactions occuring in their brain.
Therfore, order could be thought of as an electrical wire, say a copper one, that guides and controls the direction and action/reaction of the chaotic energy.
Tyme Bomb

Sorry, I nearly forgot to elaborate on you Vulcano.

ORder says that when such pressure builds, it must be released, Chaos determins vulcano locations and timing around the globe. In such ways, they work together, but in addition, if all were order, and no chaos, could you determine what is or is not order or chaos? The only alternative is to simply say all things "are", which though somewhat true, is far to ambiguous to hold any value or meaning.
Wouldn't it be boring, when asked "are stars light or dark?" and be answered only that "they are"?

Love to all,
Chaos Zen

That is why I am now Chaos Zen, I am a Chaote by religion, the zen comes from what you describe below, the creation caused by chaos, the rebirth and continuance of all things.

I dissagree however with the term "natural order", order often refers to logic, but nothing truely natural is shaped from logic or order, but more often randomalities, in science and math, fractals are considered chaos (chaos science), theye appear to look more like the blueprints of where the branches go on a tree, or where the seeds land, than logic (Order). See Ain-Soph in the snake den.

Chaos Zen

565 & Sister Awake,
I agree with both your points they are both valid. Now I ask you, What does a volcanoe represent? At first it seems chaotic. Explosions, fire, lava, destruction. but in the aftermath we see new life, a new order if you will. The ground has been fertilized and revitalized. New plants, and eventually forests grow. They form in their natural order; first the small shrubs and flowers then eventually trees, bushes and wildlife.
Tyme Bomb
Chaos and order: They rely on eachother, since without chaos, there would be no definiton of order, and vice versa. But is there really anything such as "chaos" or following that thought, "order"? Order describes a plan to things, and chaos, the lack of it. Does the world follow a plan? Are we not following a plan by being capable of these thoughts?
-§ister Awake
My view of Chaos and Order(law) are that they are intertwined and of the same origine, or rather both originating from the other. Imagine two great dragons, siamese twins-like, connected at the finial "tail". Both live and grow from the other.

Cannot have one without the other. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

I thank you for your welcome. I have not yet made my way through all of the dens yet. I am sort of moving through them randomly right now, to get a feel for the place.
-Tyme Bomb
I like your addition to "Sands", it realy adds/contributes to the story. Not only do I write there, but also look forward to reading to see where we are at. But now we need to think of where to go or what to do now that we found her.


Welcome TymeBomB, Do you go through all of the dens as I myself do? There is plenty of interesting and surreal things going on here.

Chaos Zen

Our laws in a sense, also create a chaos of its own. We end creating so many laws, which creates so much red tape that sometimes we can never get anything done because of them. We become confused and disoriented when we enter certian legal areas. The wording of some of these documents creates and sews up loop holes; some people can get away with breaking them, others can't and get caught. Some laws aren't even written down, there just unspoken social laws, like, say belching or farting out loud in public. Here in North America, as well as several other places world wide that is to go against theses social laws or social norms. In other countries farting and belching is considered a compliment on the cheifs cooking.

I too hope that the traffic increases on these dens. I have just found this site a few days ago and think it is great. TymeBomB =;)

That makes much more sense, except that I believe laws are laws, rules are rules, regaurdless of who or what makes them, I am not opposed to laws, I only push and test their limits, as well as press beyond my personal limits. If you do not believe, then you can never achieve.

My misconception of existentialisms was that I believed that they where the sort to deeply analyze their life and suroundings, often looking for ways to advance to more personal enjoyment. I never claim to know everything.

There is a difference between an imposed law (as in traffic) and a scientific law. I was talking about scientific laws. Imposed laws are there to try and help people live together. Scientific laws are what I was saying you should be friendly towards. For every one scientific law that is broken, there are thousands of laws which are not and which help us discover and progress.

I like your story of the orchard.

The link www.danzen.com/cgi-bin/dens?den=Chaos_Zen or www.danzen.com/dens will get you here. You must have typed something wrong. You can also invite friends using the invite link above the list of Open Dens.

An existentialist is one that believes there is nothing more than what we see. In my mind they are people who believe in laws of physics. We die, we decompose. Our minds can't leave our bodies unless we scientifically advance to that point. This does not preclude imagination, philosophy, and existing to our fullest. It means that we are not deluded. To me, it gives me a larger love of life - it's precious - I'm not waiting for a heaven.

We act on will, laws are not broken until they become laws.

What I mean, is if drinking of wine is to be done, would continuing to due so be considered rebelious if a law were to be enacted against such now?

What came first, the will to do so, or a law to stop the will?

If there were no laws, no one would feel the need to disprove or rebel against them. Laws trigger their own neccesity.
Is it a question?
I think I am going to slow my visits to these dens a bit, there is not enough traffic or activity to keep me going.
Perhaps there will be more in the future.

Maybe we need more promotion, is there a URL link I could forward to friends to bring them directly to the dens? When I tried the address currently in the address bar, it gave "Server not found" errors. Perhaps due to some cgi or cookie somewhere.

Just out of curriousity, are there ANY other people who at least read through more than 2 dens, at least once within a 48 hour period?
I am at peace because I dare to dream and achieve. I never limit myself simply because somebody says "it cannot be done".

Chaos Zen

Existentialist? What a name fore one who refuses to truely "Exist" to his or her fullest.

Rumor has it that one of the largest orchards within 50 miles of my home was started 85 years ago with only 2 apples, so 1 apple and 1 apple equal what?

Be at peace with limitations. Laws are our friends. When you talk of chaos and minuscules toppling laws you sound proud. Don't be. What you are probably referring to are things that do not matter. Odds so small that they will never happen nor could ever be controlled.

Laws are laws - that is their definition. One apple plus one apple equals two apples despite the fact we do not know for sure what is in the apple. If you'd like to hang around until infinity disputing that then go ahead.

That's not to say there are not new laws to find. And there may be old ones to be broken because a mistake was made. But the large majority of laws will not be broken. And this is good - be at peace with it.


Laws are made to be broken.

Laws of physics?
Call me a criminal, it's well worth it!
Speed of light
and inspiration
Time travel, Magic
and all that jazz
Comprehend and and achieve without Hesitation

When you fail to dream, you fail entirely!


I suppose my topics have grown somewhat disinteresting to those who wish to be trapped within the mundane and lack imagination.

Chaos Zen

Onward and outward, I always say!


My condolences for your being trapped within your physical form.
The laws of Physics are SO strictly enforced, just on miniscule scales~~~that is why chaos is manifest. The loose approximations that most theories offer, with their linear relations and their constants, are necessairly incomplete--there is a limit to what we may know as existant and finite beings. Now if we were Universe Man, things could be different...do you alter the condition of your body by measuring your spleen? COULD you measure your spleen? You wouldn't really have room to move!
Chaos and zen are complete oposites.
Theory and practice seldom agree, so why are such laws of phisics so loosly enforced and by what nature?


I intend to combat by whatever means, "imposibility" Just because any act, goal or exception to a limit has not yet been attained does not mean that it may not some day, be so.

But by stating the point plainly and with such simplicity and fact, do you wonder if perhaps the obvious is not always so?

Think for a momment...

if that which is not possible becomes possible, then is it not also possible that which is so may not be?

Chaos Zen

When I said something is finite--it is meant metaphorically not literally-it is like responding cryptically using cliched truisms,to a literal question....that later you feel the goat..when you realise the question was not so literal!!!!!

The things you refer to,such as the speed of sound(only measurable by OUR material CONSTRUCTS-thus subject to limit)and the speed of a microprocsessor(see above)-counting-numbers-refer to MATTER! All trivial expressions of the absolute! I thought we were speaking absolutes.
People go about saying such "ponderous"things like
all matter is really energy,and energy is limitless.......well i say if that is the case can it not be argued that all energy is then matter?---(THUS SUBJECT TO ITS'TAINT AND LIMITATIONS)
The Minds' delusions of fanciful grandeur freedom and limitless omniesscense is the proverbial "carrot" that keeps us (the donkey) progressing in a more linear path towards or goals---physical AND spiritual. It's all about how we view our potential!--those that ARE shackled tightest by limitations are oft the ones that yearn to be free of them--often by ignoring their own!

The Golden Donkey

To say all things are finite, is to think inward and smaller, I prefer to look onward and outward.
Higher is only linear if you are a rocket or a building. When a bird flies higher, which direction does he point?
Limits have truely shown themselves, such as the speed of sound at once being a limit, 100 mhz was once the limit of a microprocessors speed, Visible light was once the limit of color, so how many stars do you count tonight? With every day comes another step beyond yesterdays limits so why limit yourself?

Chaos Zen

yes--to say one thing is "higher" is an imposition unto itself and is linear and to narrow a judgement for a conversation about unlimited capacity!---absolutes exist and show,and have shown themselves throughout the ages everywhere!--
--if you stand too close to the mirror you may not see yourself!-T
yes true--but on cannot help but wonder about the nature of any ABSOLUTES in an age where morality,humanity,truth,love,justice,positions of power and responsibility,good,evil,and other things are now "subjective" and bound only by the individuals desire to push things farther to their own limits!-as if to only say-"So there!- YOUR limits hold me not!" ...being unaware of the possible consequences---absolute balancing. It would seem that those least qualified to stretch such limits are the people most willing to do so.

heir level?--what will I be in-hieriting?
It was once said, "I think therefore I am", then can it not also be true that I think all things are possible therefor by some extent perhaps not yet attained that they may be? Limitations are most often self imposed. Without the banishment of ones own limits that person will not likely reach any hier level.
Chaos Zen
Laws are written and spoken, who can speak for, or write for the universe. Then are they truly laws? Who can make laws for a place they've not yet been or a thought never pondered?
The body and mind are so solid and tangent as which we percieve, but do you allow thought and spirit to also be so confined?
Yes. There are physical laws but are there mental laws?
all things that bear the taint of encapsulation within matter, bear its' limitations....if our own human liquid power generators were geared for a higher output somehow those statements might be true but...our own minds and souls are bound by matter and...it's laws(sigh)
The limits imposed by such laws are limits to our efforts. Thus if effort were unlimited all things are possible, just as with the unlimited efforts of the mind.
I think the laws of the universe make some things impossible. That is why they are laws.

Imposibility does not exsist as such, rather only a disquise for that which is very difficult and requires more effort.